23rd October 2008

Politicians and Taxes

Andrea @ 9:37 am

Note: I’m not even going to try to avoid politics in the next week and a half. It’s impossible. Everything about the economy is coming down to these two guys who won’t be able to do most of the stuff they’re going to say they’re going to do, but hey, at least it gets some discussion going.

One of the biggest issues in this election is taxes. In an economy burdened by dropping home prices, tight credit, an expensive war, and government bailouts, citizens are justifiably concerned about how much of their money will be scooped up by the government.

Both candidates have similar stated goals (grow the economy, middle class relief, get out of this crisis) but they have very different ideas about how to reach those goals from an income tax standpoint. They also both say that the other guy has got it completely wrong. What’s a poor voter to do?

Yesterday over at MoneyNing, there was a nice little table posted that broke down what taxpayers at different income levels would pay under each candidate’s proposed plan. I went poking around online and found a similar table from CNN/Money in June of this year, which is reproduced below.

Now, this chart isn’t perfect because the only point at which the numbers in that chart are valid is when you’re at the very top dollar within the given range. That’s because it’s a representation of the marginal tax rates, which we’ve discussed before. It’s a stairstep system, remember. Still, it’s a good representation of the real impact of each candidate’s plan would be as far as federal income tax burdens.

The single most important thing to remember about both of these plans is that they apply to adjusted income. The tax rates in both candidates’ plans do not apply to your family’s gross income. If your combined household salary is $55,000 (about the national average), you are most likely not going to pay taxes on that amount. Personal deductions, deductions for children, mortgage interest, pre-tax contributions to retirement plans or flex spending accounts - all of these adjustments (and many more) lower your final adjusted income and therefore lower the amount of taxable income.

That’s important to keep in mind because the fundamental debate over taxes comes down to whether or not raising taxes is a disincentive to ambition. The basic argument is that if we have a progressive tax (higher incomes are taxed more), people will simply choose to not take that next promotion or start that business. That is, in effect, the whole Joe the Plumber debate, right?

According to this chart, McCain’s statement in New Hampshire recently that he would not raise taxes for anyone is apparently true. Unfortunately for him, that statement doesn’t take into account that by most polling numbers, he will be facing a strong Democratic majority in Congress if he wins.  What he says he wants to do and what he would actually have the ability to do, therefore, are two very, very different things. His plan can be read here.

Obama’s plan is to not raise taxes on anyone until you see salaries of over $250,000 and according to this graph, this also appears to be true. The slight increase given in the table comes from the current tax tables actually starting below $250,000. Still, it’s interesting to note that even up until a household hits $600,000, Obama’s not exactly digging deep into pockets.

Bearing all of this in mind, let’s ponder for a moment.

If we have Joe the Plumber who thinks Obama of Locksley is going to take away his American Dream, what should Joe do?

One course of action would be to simply forget about buying that business and stay an employee of a plumbing firm for the rest of his life. That is what critics of Obama’s plan say will essentially happen - hardworking ambitious Americans will simply give up the dream and stay worker bees forever. I don’t think it’s true in general because I have faith in the innate drive people have to grow, but I’m sure there are some who will decide that it’s not worth the hassle.

Another plan would be to buy that business and work as a sole proprietor until he hits that $250,000 a year magic number (ADJUSTED, remember) and then take the rest of the year off. Also not exactly a shining example of American gung-ho drive and probably quite impossible to do as a single person plumber, but also not an irrational plan if he thinks he can pull it off.

But there’s a third option, and that’s the one that seems to be getting lost in the shuffle. The third option is that Joe buys his plumbing business and then uses all of the tax advantages he can to keep his taxable income below $250,000, and those resources are considerable. Wages to hire employees, equipment, vans, trips to see vendors, trade show expenses, sponsorships for local charity events - the list goes on and on. By taking this path, Joe not only reduces his taxable income, he also provides jobs and helps his community and charities of his choice.

McCain also believes that Joe should invest in his business and community, but he believes that the best way to accomplish that is to simply lower Joe’s taxes and let him choose where he’ll invest or donate. I don’t disagree with the idealism of this belief at all. In the long run, it is beneficial for Joe to invest in his community - more jobs, better incomes, less people living in poverty all mean there are more people who can build out their basements and install a bathroom or upgrade their current bathrooms and kitchens. The question comes down to whether or not individuals will work towards a long term goal as a trade off for short term luxury without an incentive (or disincentive, as the case may be) to do so. My personal belief is that when we don’t spread at least a smidgen of the wealth around, what we end up with is a growing gap between the rich and the poor, which ultimately is unsustainable. Look around.

OK, just one more issue, as this post has gone on way too long already.

When taxes get cut in one place without a cut in spending, we have a problem. One only has to look at the debt clock running out of numbers to see that the government has run amok. I’m here to tell you that if we see a large drop in personal income taxes and corporate income taxes at the same time, you WILL see your property taxes go up, your sales taxes go up, your local income taxes go up, and (if you have them in the first place) your state income taxes go up. You will see more bond referendums in your elections in order to pay for roads, schools. We all know this at a common sense level, because we know that if our own personal incomes go down, our spending has to go down as well. Somehow, though, as a society we choose to believe that when it comes to government revenue and spending, those rules don’t apply. Silly Americans, why do we do that?

This post is featured in the Carnival of Personal Finance - Financial Armageddon Edition! at Master Your Card. Please drop by over there to for some other great posts.

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This entry was posted on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008 at 9:37 am and is filed under Credit Cards, Debt, Economy, Energy, Politics, Spending, taxes. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

There are currently 12 responses to “Politicians and Taxes”

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  1. 1 On October 23rd, 2008, Kevin Wright said:

    I don’t think Obama’s tax plan is going to stop the oe the Plumers out there from buying or starting their business. I think it makes it a little more difficult.

    I do agree that we should encourage investment in the community, but I think the way to do that is not to take money away and have a wellfare type of redistribution. It is better to provide incentives for investments. provide greater breaks for Business owners to invest in their company. Provide better incentives for investments in general.

    You are correct, the policies of the republicans to cut taxes and increase prending astronomically is foolish and silly. Did they forget about the Contract with America?

  2. 2 On October 23rd, 2008, Andrea said:

    What kind of incentives do you think would encourage businesses to invest in the community rather than invest in a McMansion, an iPod for the kids, and breast implants for the wife? Should we ask the execs on Wall Street what they did to invest in their communities? I suppose if we find the manufacturer of golden parachutes … :)

    I’m not talking about welfare, and really wish that word would quit being used. It has a negative connotation, and it’s not fairly distributed. Again looking pointedly at Wall Street … and farmers with water subsidies … and Halliburton …

  3. 3 On October 24th, 2008, Kevin Wright said:

    I’m talking about specified tax breaks and great tax breaks for investing in businesses. Greater tax breaks on business infrastructionm, Technology upgrades, payroll taxes, and things of that order. If you want to raise taxes, raise it on the luxury items and boob jobs :).

    The problem I have is just giving money to people, like these stimulus checks. Why not take that ’stimulus’ money and invest it in something that can create jobs and opportunities like energy independence?

    Also, I am not saying that there should be zero welfare. Programs to help provide some basic staples like the WIC programs and such. I am not opposed to providing some job training.

  4. 4 On October 24th, 2008, Marcus Aurelius said:

    The single most important thing to realize about the tax proposals of Obama and McCain is that the details of neither really matters. The US President is not a dictator; any tax plan would have to go through Congressional debate and deliberation, at which point it almost certainly will emerge as something in between the two. Same goes for health care, environmental policies, any other domestic/economic proposal.

    Far more important, when comparing these two candidates, is to look at the things that they can affect directly in the Executive branch, such as committing troops into conflicts, engaging in or avoiding diplomatic efforts with other countries, enforcing or ignoring laws and regulations. These they can accomplish unilaterally, no matter who’s in Congress, so you can more directly take their policies and contrast.

  5. 5 On October 25th, 2008, Andrea said:

    OK, so … two single most important things. :) My point was, I guess, more focused on the rhetoric, not the ability to actually accomplish what they say they’ll do. Although if Obama wins and the poll numbers for Congress are even remotely on target, he’s going to have a much easier time of it.

    I agree that the other bits you mentioned are important, but more difficult of course to stump about. I don’t think W would have said during his campaign, for example, “I will add more executive signing statements to bills during my Presidency than any of my opponents.”

  6. 6 On October 25th, 2008, Andrea said:

    Kevin - the stimulus checks were a stupid move. I’m not the sharpest crayon in the box but as soon as I read that I thought, “stimulus, my ass - this is a backhanded mortgage bailout.” Sure enough, as the numbers started to flow in the month after the check, polls were showing people paying off credit cards and their mortgages or fill up their tanks … or just tucking it away for an emergency. All completely rational responses and there’s no way the authors of the package didn’t know what wasa going to happen. Or if they didn’t we should all be very worried.

  7. 7 On October 27th, 2008, Carnival of Personal Finance - Financial Armageddon Edition! | Master Your Card said:

    [...] Fools and Sages has a very interesting post on the differences between McCain and Obama’s tax plans. Ultimately, if you’re earning over $2.9 Million this year you should vote for the former, because he’s going to give you a $269,000 tax break. For the rest of us, Obama’s plan seems far more equitable. [...]

  8. 8 On November 7th, 2008, CD Rates - ChrisCD said:

    I agree the stimulus checks were dumb. I don’t like the current bail-out plan either. However, to think that $1000 would solve the mortgage crisis seems a litle naive. The checks were an attempt to boost spending. Plain and simple. And they played into the fact that the Gov’t has been encouraging us to spend, borrow, spend, borrow, and spend some more for quite some time. They figured most people would just spend it again.

    Some sort of Mortgage bail-out will be passed. Are you in favor of that? Who gets to decide who is worthy or not? Why shouldn’t the people who were responsible and have continued to be so, be considered? Of course, I won’t be a big fan of the bail-out either.

    When it comes to what you do with what you make, it should be your decision. Whether it is titheing, donating, or buying a Ferrari. The Gov’t shouldn’t go around taxing people to try to prop up others who haven’t earned it.

    The numbers in the tax grid say it all. And since Obama does have a Democratically contolled House and Senate, he may very will get what he wants. Why should someone making $2.9MM have to have their taxes increased to give a $600 tax credit to someone who isn’t even paying taxes. If the person making $19K needs another $600 a year, maybe they should start a blog, recycle some cans, or work a few more hours.

    And before you think I’m just too crass, understand, I was there. I had a wife and a child and was making about $17K. What did I do? I got a 2nd job and put in 16 - 18 hours a day and worked my bottom off.

    CD Rates - ChrisCD’s last blog post..Who Can Make the Better Decision

  9. 9 On November 7th, 2008, Andrea said:

    Chris -
    I don’t think you meant to imply this, but for some reason I’m getting the feeling that you think that I think that $1000 would solve the mortgage crisis. I don’t at all, I just thought it particularly offensive that it put forth as something being done for citizens when in fact it was a last ditch effort to continue the fake propping up of the economy that had been done previously by the mortgage industry.

    I think whatever mortgage plan “they” come up with will piss everyone off,so I came up with my own.

    Your comment that the government shouldn’t prop up people who haven’t earned it is naive, in my opinion. You have been the beneficiary of other people providing you with money that you didn’t earn. We share in some things in order to be part of a society. Our choice to not participate or to limit our participation is partly within our control. If you don’t want to pay as much to Social Security, increase your income well over the cap. If you don’t want to pay into at all, don’t work. If you don’t want to pay sales taxes, don’t buy stuff. If you want to reduce your income taxes, maximize your deductions (by tithing or donating, even). If you are very offended by the idea of a $600 tax credit, don’t claim it - or turn around and send that money to a group that is opposed to the tax policies.

    I don’t think you’re being crass, you’re certainly within your rights to state your opinions, and I very much admire your drive to provide for yourself and your family. My family has never had to take direct government assistance and I’m glad - there were times when we probably could but we went out and took jobs here and there that were not our life’s dream work. But you know what? I’m fortunate to have been born to a family that valued education and could provide one for me. I have advantages because of my race. I know that I am blessed with good health both now and as a child when my little brain was forming. I have never been malnourished, abused, or neglected.

    Some others are not so fortunate and I will not presume to say that those who have much higher hurdles to overcome should “just do it.”

  10. 10 On November 10th, 2008, CD Rates - ChrisCD said:

    Andrea, in your comment to Kevin you mentioned ["stimulus, my %%% - this is a backhanded mortgage bailout."]. I didn’t mean to imply you thought it would solve the problem, but it seemed that you believe it was for the purpose of helping it. I just don’t believe the Gov’t saw it that way. All they hoped for was a temporary increase in spending to get the economy over the hump. Sadly, the hump is almost the size of Mt. Everest. :O)

    As far as being helped by others. Sure we have been. My point is, it was their decision to make, not the Gov’ts. I should be able to make my own decisions regarding what I do with what I earn. The Gov’t should be in the business of securing borders, providing protection, and maintaining commerce.

    The fact is the size of Gov’t is out of control. The Gov’t doesn’t follow its own advice. I’m supposed to reign in my spending so that I can give more to the Gov’t to dole out?!? That just doesn’t compute.

    Look at California (where I live). We already have some of the highest taxes in the nation and now they want to increase it even more.

    CD Rates - ChrisCD’s last blog post..Who Can Make the Better Decision

  11. 11 On November 10th, 2008, CD Rates - ChrisCD said:

    Sometimes, Humor says it better.

    THE USGA WOULD LIKE TO INFORM ALL GOLFERS

    There is a possibility of MAJOR rule changes to the game of golf, this may occur sometime after November 4.

    This is only a preview as the complete rule book is being written now.
    Here are a couple of basic changes.

    Golfers with handicaps:
    - below 10 will have their green fees increase by 35%
    - between 11 and 18 will see no increase in green fees
    - above 18 will play for free and even get a check from the club/course played

    The dollar amount put in for bets will be as follows:
    -for handicaps below 10 an additional $10
    -between 11 and 18 no additional amount
    -above 18 you will receive the total amount in the pot and you do not even have to play.

    The term “gimme” putt will be changed to “entitlement” and will be used as follows:
    -handicaps below 10, no entitlements
    -handicaps above 11 to 17, entitlements for putter length putts
    -handicaps above 18, if on green, no need to ever putt, just pick it up

    These “entitlements” are intended to bring about fairness in scoring so that the final scores of all players will be about the same.

    In addition, a Player will be limited to a max of one birdie and/or six pars, any excess must be given to those fellow players who have not yet scored a birdie or par. Only after all players have received a birdie or par from the player making the birdie or par, can that Player begin to count his score again.

    The current USGA handicap system will be used for the above purposes but the term “net score” will be available only for scoring those players with handicaps 18 and above.

    This is intended to “redistribute” the success of winning by making sure that in every competition the above 18 handicap players will post only “net score” against every other player’s gross score.

    These new Rules are intended to CHANGE the game of golf. Golf must be about Fairness Only, it should have nothing to do with Ability.

    cd :O)

    CD Rates - ChrisCD’s last blog post..Who Can Make the Better Decision

  12. 12 On November 10th, 2008, Andrea said:

    Oooooo Chris, wait until you see the news today. Posting in a few.

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